TRANSCRIPT

NATHAN JONES

On this episode, I had the privilege to speak with Anne Zaki from Cairo, Egypt. Anne has an extensive background in theological education and teaching, including an emphasis on faith development and spiritual formation. As a result, we had the opportunity to spend some time talking about the actual development of generosity and stewardship in one's journey with Christ, a key topic given our focus in this series.

My name is Nathan Jones and as your host, I want to thank you for joining in on this episode of the Inspiring Stewards podcast.

Anne, thank you for taking the time to join me today on this episode of the Inspiring Stewards podcast. It's a joy to be with you. Why don't we just jump in? Give us a little bit of your backstory, your life, growing up, where you're from, that sort of thing.

ANNE ZAKI

I am from Cairo, Egypt, and I grew up as a pastor's daughter in a church downtown. So I grew up in urban ministry. I lived here until I was 16 years old, and then I was selected to receive a scholarship to attend an international school in Western Canada. I was there for a couple of years, and then I received another scholarship to go study in the US. I finished that in four years. And then I came back to Cairo to study at the American University in Cairo, where I did my first masters and then back to the States for more education and then back to Cairo in 2011. After the Egyptian revolution, God called me and my husband and our four sons to come and minister here, and we've been here ever since.

NATHAN

Wow. So Western Canada is not the same landscape as Cairo.

ANNE

Not at all. Both are beautiful in their own way.

NATHAN

Yeah. What was your area of study generally?

ANNE

I started out in psychology and sociology. That was my first masters. And then at some point, God called me to ministry. And so I switched from a Doctorate in Education with psychology and sociology background to an MDiv degree from Calvin Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And then I pursued a Doctorate in Preaching from Fuller Theological Seminary. In fact, my graduation is in two months.

NATHAN

Well, congratulations!

ANNE

Thank you.

NATHAN

So obviously a Christ-centered journey. How did you come to know the Lord originally?

ANNE

Well, the Lord knew me all my life and before I was born, and I thought I knew Him until I was 15. At age 15, I went to a youth camp, and there I got to know the one who knows me. And from the very beginning, He called me to love His church and to serve His church. So as I said, I grew up in the church all my life attend the church six nights a week, as is the tradition here. But it was really at that youth camp when I was 15 years old that I recognized Him as my Lord and Savior.

NATHAN

Wow. Was that in Cairo, the camp, or was that…?

ANNE

Well, that was in a place called Beit El Salam, the House of Peace, right on the Mediterranean near Alexandria.

NATHAN

Wow. Beautiful. So you came to agree with the Lord that He knew you and now you knew Him. What impact did that then have on your life?

ANNE

Everything. Whatever was done externally, because I was the pastor's daughter, whatever was done on the outside, because I lived in the parsonage that belonged to the Church was now motivated by an inner love and inner power, a gratitude that He knew me all along, that He was patient enough to wait for me to recognize, to not be forced into a loving relationship with Him, but to actually woo me. This is really what happened. It took me 15 years to recognize this patient love, but once I did, I was wooed for life.

NATHAN

Wow. So let's jump ahead. It's 2022 now. What work, vocation does the Lord have you involved in these days?

ANNE

Currently, I am on the faculty of the Evangelical Theological Seminary in Cairo. I've been with them since 2013, and I teach in the Practical Theology department. So every year I teach five courses: preaching, worship, spiritual formation, psychology, and communication.

When I'm not working at the seminary, I am ministering to raise the next generation of Egyptian leaders and Arab leaders. I do a lot of traveling in the region, and I try to serve the local church. I believe strongly in the local congregation, and I try to use all of my education and all of my gifting to be able to raise the next generation of leaders in their context.

NATHAN

What are some of the leadership principles that you see really get traction in developing leaders in that part of the world? I can think through a North American context in my own life. I had a Master's degree in Leadership Studies from Denver Seminary. I'm fascinated to consider what does leadership development look like in Cairo, in the Middle East? What is similar? What is different maybe than in North American context?

ANNE

I think there's a lot of similarities. I think every leader, no matter what the context is, they need to stand on strong foundations of credibility, of strong faith, of teachability, of humility, of being part of a team. I think all of that stuff is needed for leadership anywhere you're found.

I think for the Arab world, for not just Egyptians, but for our entire region, we focus a lot on resilience. We focus a lot on creativity amidst crisis. And we focus a lot on mentorship because it seems to be endless how we're being hit by crisis from every side. Unless you have that support system in place and unless you have the wisdom of the older generation to rely on – to have that mutual support with your mentor, I think it helps with resilience and it helps with creativity.

But we also focus a lot on just daily dependence on God. We live in a part of the world that is so unpredictable. It changes direction so suddenly, much like the sandstorms in our desert, except all of a sudden, and you never know how long it's going to last. And so, you need to be equipped all the time. But you also need to know that there is a God who's watching you, who knows where the storm is going in the direction of it and the speed of it, and He's definitely in control of the storm.

NATHAN

That's tremendous. So Anne, this is the Inspiring Stewards podcast. How has the concept of stewardship informed your life, whether kind of up to this point or with what you're doing these days?

ANNE

I think there's a maturity that happens in Christ when it comes to every area of our lives and stewardship is no exception to that. As you asked me initially, what has changed from my early childhood years to after I came to know the Lord and I said a movement inwards happened. Whatever was being practiced on the outside because it was the right thing to do became an internal desire. God worked on my will and worked on my desires to become a Christ follower. And so it wasn't just about doing the right thing. It was about loving to want to do the right thing.

NATHAN

Wow.

ANNE

And I think stewardship sometimes starts out by good Christians wanting to do the right thing. I think a movement inwards happens where it becomes a desire, a longing to do the right thing. It's no longer about what would it look like if I did the right thing or didn't do the right thing? How would other people see it?

It becomes more of a “I cannot live without doing the right thing. I cannot live with myself.” And so in some ways, people start giving, for example, not because there's a need that presents itself, but because the person, himself or herself, has a need to give. The focus shifts completely from what is needed from me to be a Christ-follower to what is needed for me to be a Christ-follower. That shift from to for reorients us completely towards Christ much more than towards filling a gap that somebody has or meeting a need that somebody has. The need is no longer with them. The need is in us.

NATHAN

Yeah, that is beautiful. As I've been involved in various fundraising circles, that shift is so important to move away from the focus on the gift that somebody's giving of, say, money for a project to focus on their own growth as a generous giver and like you said, the internal.

So given your global perspective, having studied and applied on multiple continents, how is that developed in somebody? How is that sense of moving from the outward product focus to more of the inward source and the desire? How does that happen in someone's life as they're growing in maturity? What can the church or what can we do to cultivate that?

ANNE

I really think that it has a lot to do with how we understand the Lordship of Christ. I think that the concept of stewardship cannot stand alone. I mean, you're a steward of something that you don't own. That's what makes you steward, right?

And so a deep recognition of what it means that the Earth belongs to the Lord and all that's in it, including me, including what I have, what I've worked for, what I've earned, what I own, all of that actually belongs to the Lord. And so it becomes a lifestyle that doesn't simply give because I have. But it's a lifestyle that says, “I give because I've been given.” It reorients me towards the Owner of all things and the Gifter of all things.

NATHAN

Wow. Let's take a step back and just kind of consider how God is at work in the world today. How are you seeing Him at work, whether in your local context or in global ways? So much has happened in our world in the last few years and how would you answer that question of how you're seeing God at work at this time in history?

ANNE

That's a tough question to answer because the news media want to make sure that we don't see God at work. In fact, they want to make sure that the stories that tell the opposite truth is there. And we would be foolish to ignore what those stories are because it's out of those stories that we become conscious of what the needs are and where we need to move as a church.

However, it's not the news media's job to tell God stories. It's our job. God is working and renewing and providing and healing in ways that I have never seen Him before. And maybe because the world is getting darker, His light is shining all the more brighter. And maybe because the pain is no longer limited to a certain geography or a certain location, but because of social media, because of technology, it is now felt by everybody almost instantaneously. As it happens in some place, we feel the pain on the other side of the world. Which also means that when healing happens, when renewal happens in one part of the world, we hear about it also instantaneously.

So when I see refugee camps scattered all over Lebanon and Jordan and here in Egypt and then I think, where is God in all of this? I find Him right in the refugee camps. And the camera that shows the pain is not the church's camera. The camera that shows the grace in the midst of the pain, that's where the church's camera ought to zoom and show.

And I will tell you, my camera is full of footage of what God is doing in the midst of crisis after another where God is present and God is using His people and God is using supernatural powers to be there with His people. To be there to renew even the face of His creation.

NATHAN

That's amazing. Anne, it's really been a joy to be with you and have this brief conversation. So many good topics we could dive into and spend time. But as we wrap up any final thoughts you'd have for those listening in today? Anything you'd want to emphasize or anything you'd want to add?

ANNE

I just want to give testimony to the God who not only gives freely and generously but also to a God who is faithful to keep watch over the gifts that He gives. That Jesus was very smart when He said, “What will worry do? It won't add anything. It won't take away anything.”

But for me it's been an incredible adventure of trusting God, of knowing that not only does He give freely and generously but that He is careful and faithful to also hold safe all that He's given. And therefore, I can live more openly with an open hand that says He's given freely therefore I will give freely.

NATHAN

Wow. Beautiful word. Anne, thank you so much.

ANNE

Thank you, Nathan.